When Good Forums Lose their Appeal

June 15, 2008

I’ve been participating in BlogCatalog, a blogging community with individual user pages as well as a forum, for a little over a year now. I enjoy many of the people I have met there, and I have learned quite a bit about blogging in the process. Along the way I have also encountered a variety of bad behaviors, including overt religious and political proselytizing, spamming, general mean spiritedness, and much worse. Hence, I was very happy when BlogCatalog finally instituted a clear set of behavioral norms for the forum.

On the down side, BlogCatalog continued to rely on user reports of bad behavior instead of having its staff take an active role in moderating the forums. The idea, it seems, was to make a virtue out of necessity and preach community involvement. If we wanted to keep things clean, we had to clean them up ourselves. To that end, BlogCatalog provides a report button on each thread and user comment. If someone thinks a comment is inappropriate, she can report it. BlogCatalog staff can then review the post and decide what to do.

Lately this self-policing seems to have become insufficient and even counter-productive. Threads about what the rules actually mean are experiencing a resurgence. They include questions about what is actually inflammatory. Some would ban politics altogether. I wanted to do the same for religion once. But more interesting and problematic are the comments emerging about the use of the report button. Some imply any use of it is like tattling in school. Others obsess about who reported what. And some of these same people seem to think that a report ends in automatic deletion. I once attributed such remarks to the anti-social, an answer that still works for me sometimes. Really, though, the system is helping to foster an us-versus-them mentality.

I myself have been very active in trying to police the forums, because I thought they were worth maintaining. Lately, though, I have become tempted to just ignore their slide into an online version of the “Jerry Springer Show” combined with an imaginary organization I’ll call “Ignorance and Conspiracy Central.” I’m tired of putting up with harassment from folks who feel that my and others’ efforts to help self-police are just wrong. More to the point, I do not see any sense in it, if BlogCatalog’s own staff is unable or unwilling to make enough of an effort to communicate its policies to those who don’t understand them. I am beginning to agree with another blogger, who last week decided she would no longer use the report button, saying it was not her job. After all, this is a privately owned company, not a community in the sense that any of its members has any real stake in the process, outside of whatever fun and opportunities for blog promotion are to be had.

Now I’m thinking the only logical consequence is to cut my involvement on the forums way down, unless there is a specific blogging or internet issue that interests me or I have a post that I would like to promote. If there were more active involvement on the forums by BlogCatalog staff, I might feel differently; however, economic and manpower limitations appear to preclude such a change.

Entry Filed under: forums. Tags: , .

17 Comments Add your own

  • 1. DrowseyMonkey  |  June 15, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    Well done. And I agree with you about the self-policing. I think I was the one (or one of the ones) who said I wouldn’t be doing that anymore. It’s not my job and other members seem to think we’re out to get them or something. Which I’m not. I got the feeling from the Admins that they WANTED us to use the report button. They said so in a couple of threads. So I thought I was doing a good thing.

    But …. I think (and maybe I’m wrong) that BC likes the controversial threads and arguing … because it brings in more people. Which is why I decided that unless it’s really over the top, I wouldn’t report it.

    In the few times I used the report button it wasn’t to report something as “offensive” as the conspiracy theorists imply, rather it was to report a breach in the rules, like posting a link or something.

    So I say, let’s all just stop reporting … then let the boards fill-up with link exchanges and then see what the conspiracy theorists say.

    Great post Mark! :)

  • 2. kevin  |  June 15, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    First of all, excellent post.

    I think that the cyclical nature of usage and membership has a big impact on this. Basically every few months this is going to occur, there is a new set of people commenting besides a core group and all these situations and discussions will boil to the surface.

    I’ve seen this happen on other social networking sites. it is just a process that will repeat itself every so often.

    Also I have faith that BC has something in the works to change things up a bit. They don’t react fast but you know they listen to the community and generally work things out.

  • 3. timethief  |  June 15, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    The “who pushed the button police” alleging that others are conspiring against them is unbelievably paranoid and laughable. It seems the same group of co-conspirators, who cooked up 4 new rules as though they were replacing Admin are hellbent on pointing fingers back at themselves. Watching this go down is like watching a train wreck.

  • 4. Mark Stoneman  |  June 15, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    @DrowseyMonkey: Yes, I had your comments in mind, which at the time I disagreed with. What can I say? I experienced a change of heart.

    @Kevin: I’m aware of the cyclical nature of the enterprise, but it doesn’t mean I have to like it. There might also be a better way to manage the friction that comes with such cycles, though I’ve no idea what that would be.

    @TimeThief: I’m not sure there’s anything that organized, and at least one of those people is quite sane and a decent guy. But the larger point is that the report feature might now be creating the kind of friction that it was initially designed to prevent.

    Or maybe the problem is just having certain active members such as myself put themselves out there too much. My own involvement has made me too much of a target for those intent on squabbling. No thank you. So I’ll try to cut a different kind of profile.

  • 5. ender  |  June 16, 2008 at 1:20 am

    well said, mark. personally, i got tired of the people who checked off that they had read the rules when they hadn’t; the people who do not understand the difference between the legal term “freedom of speech” and a privately owned website; the insistence on clinging to ignorance and belittling of anyone who didn’t share “x” viewpoint.

    i got tired of trying to help people who didn’t want help – they wanted a platform to spout their brand of The Truth or Hate or Ignorance or Stupidity.

    i’ve enjoyed BC a great deal and I really adore most of the people running it (i don’t dislike any of them, i just “know” a couple of them more than i do the others) … but it’s just not a comfortable place to hang my hat any more.

  • 6. Mrs T  |  June 16, 2008 at 7:42 am

    It’s frustrating when you want to discuss important issues sensibly- there is so much to learn and appreciate – when other people simply refuse to; it’s one of the reasons I decided at the outset not to get involved in such forums.( Particularly having come across one particularly offensive and frankly ignorant person on Facebook whose knowledge and interpretation of History was highly prejudicial.) Now I just stick to reading, commenting and enjoying the blogs of a few people whose writings are of interest to me and establishing a few genuine friendships. I’m happy with that.

  • 7. Barry  |  June 16, 2008 at 7:43 am

    The only time I bothered to report anything was “spam” that was totally off topic. I don’t care so much if someone says offensive stuff or whatever. I have had stuff deleted, and I could care less who reported it, I just wonder how the heck it was out of place or whatever.

    Maybe I am too thick skinned.

  • 8. Thrift Shop Romantic  |  June 16, 2008 at 7:58 am

    The squabbling is getting to be too much. I’ve tried to block it out, but it permeates everything, even unrelated things.

    I’ve tried to post, getting folks to see the big picture– why others might be reacting the way they do, give tips for better communication, mutual understanding, and potentially heading off criticisms, but I don’t think folks want to hear it.

    I find myself feeling that people tune out common sense and mutual respect– it’s just not sexy, I suppose. It’s not hot, controversial and conforming to their goals to draw in and trap “followers.”

    Plus, there’s a good chunk of people that will take any analysis and apply it to the next guy– and not themselves.

    If folks won’t accept they’re part of the problem, and be willing to make concessions, then no solutions can be reached. It’s terribly frustrating.

  • 9. Mark Stoneman  |  June 16, 2008 at 9:21 am

    @Ender: I really like the BC admins I know too.

    @Mrs T: That’s what I need to do more of. That’s what blogs were designed for anyway.

    @Thrift Shop Romantic: Your last line applies to me as well. I have come to the conclusion that my efforts have become counterproductive. My own frustration has given me a sharp tongue as well, which doesn’t make the place any nicer.

    —–

    Another issue that bothers me is the fact that all threads stay live, even a year later. This means anyone can add a response to what I write, and I won’t know about it, unless I monitor BC. Threads also get corrupted this way, as comments are added willy nilly in the middle of them. More importantly, it’s just one more area where people can behave badly. I have expressed my concern about this issue on more than one occasion. I’m told the threads still have value and it’s legitimate to bring them up many months later. Maybe from BC’s point of view, but what I’ve seen gives me pause.

  • 10. Mark Stoneman  |  June 17, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    So here’s an example of why I like BlogCatalog, just not where it’s been of late. Tony, who is in charge of the place, started a thread on BC about the issues I raised. (Look for the avatar of the white dog scratching himself called TonyB.) You can also see Daniel, the hard-working programmer and all-round go-to guy at BlogCatalog. (Look for the avatar of a tiger called thegoodknife).

    Edited next day to add: That thread also contains examples of the kinds of behaviors that really bug me about the place.

  • 11. Alan  |  June 18, 2008 at 2:00 am

    Great post, Mark. Personally I find I have just drifted away from the BC boards. There don’t seem to be that many interesting topics on there anymore and as you point out the “nastyness factor” is just overwhelming sometimes. I miss hanging out with the people I used to hang out with there, but it’s just not the same anymore.

  • 12. Carl  |  June 18, 2008 at 4:22 am

    Mark, I’m going to respond to this discussion here, rather than at BC, and say that broadly speaking I agree with you.

    Apart from promoting my blog, I also enjoy participating in the discussions at BC, I like being able to share my opinion on a range of topics, I get a kick out of being able to help a newbie who wants to promote their blog or understand SEO.

    What I don’t enjoy are the comments from people who seem to think ‘freedom of speech’ applies to every single thing that they could ever say. I saw one comment in a discussion about gay marriage where a person thought all gay people needed to be forcefully re-educated in camps reminiscent of Stalin’s day. In political discussions I’ve seen people throw racial slurs around aimed at discrediting one of the current presidential candidates, and then have the audacity to say they were simply repeating what others would say.

    In my opinion, standards of behaviour at BC need to be tightened up. I have yet to see one of my comments removed, and nor have I received a rebuke from the BC admins, so I can only assume that standing up for the middle ground is the correct thing to do, but as drowsey said above, it isn’t my job, and maybe we should just let BC go to the dogs and let the admins pick up the pieces afterward.

  • 13. GlossGreen  |  June 18, 2008 at 6:44 am

    Stoneman, I totally agree with what you say. Policing the forums is not supposed to be our job. I frequent a couple of other forums and on all of those the moderators are many and usually very active on the boards themselves. I’ve noticed that the admins on BC only get active in times of contention, like when the religion thing blew up a few months ago. Lately I haven’t seen much activity from them. I know they are busy running the site, but they can get a few volunteers (and since they’d be volunteers they wouldn’t have to pay them) to help them monitor the forums. Policing ourselves won’t work, there are just too many crazies out there.

  • 14. Mark Stoneman  |  June 19, 2008 at 12:35 am

    Hmmm, another positive intervention from Tony of BC? Judging by the responses, I wasn’t the only one bothered by tiresome false accusations of favoritism and conspiracies. http://www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/removal-of-threads Tony and Angie (also of BC) have both been on the boards the past couple days.

  • 15. Houstonhotdeals  |  June 19, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    Great topic. Yes, there’s an occassional troll but, sometimes offenders aren’t actually aware of their offenses. The topic police are in my opinion quite necessary. Some posters are on a learning curve. Not to be confused with a learning cliff.

  • 16. Mark Stoneman  |  July 26, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    I’ve come to the conclusion that sometimes people who seem intolerant or even bigoted to me might think that they are tolerant. Of course, there are always those who behave badly, but I’m interested in those who think they’re not. Maybe there’s a disconnect in perception between me and them? And where would that disconnect lie? At least in part, perhaps, in the difficult issue of what tolerance is. I started a thread about this topic yesterday, not without some trepidation. It has gone reasonably well, too, though there have been some moments where it has shown signs of wanting to derail. Could happen yet. http://www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/what-does-tolerance-mean-to-you

    Update (7/27/2008): Yeah, it’s happened. There’s a guy who likes to highjack threads and throw tantrums. Has done this in other places, and I had actually assumed BlogCatalog had given him the boot. Guess they will now. Maybe. Meanwhile, it’s left me frustrated and makes me wonder if civil conversations on such open forums are even possible, at least without very active moderation. There were some relevant segments on On the Media this week: Comments on Comments, Hellhounds on My Trail, and Aren’t We There Yet.

    It also turns out that when one responds to someone on BC, the time stamp is only to the nearest hour after an hour passes. So in this case a troll was posting something every minute, a series of posts with no conversation. And then foolish me went in and responded to a few of the remarks. A few hours later, it looks like we were having a conversation. This too makes me more wary. And weary. BC has tried to improve things, but without regular moderation, I don’t see it working. Relying on the guy who does all the coding and maintenance as well just won’t work.

    Update: 7/28/08: The thread jumped the shark last night. See below.

  • 17. Mark Stoneman  |  July 28, 2008 at 10:35 am

    I was away from the computer for many hours. During that time it turned out I was wrong about where a potential threat to the tolerance thread lay. One person with an axe to grind and who questioned my motives from the start got into it with others, and they gave back as much as they received, and then some. Another who apparently hasn’t seen that blogger on the worst days in the past jumped into defend the aggrieved, because they share religious convictions and a similar sense of Christians being under attack. The result was just one more of those tit-for-tat arguments I’ve seen too often in the past. The whole thing got out of hand and admin locked the thread—quite rightly.

    Earlier I had even tried to address the concern of the aggrieved blogger who felt I have been anything but tolerant on the boards (it goes back to my openly expressed dislike of proselytizing on that forum, which I’ve blogged about), but my most open and frank remarks examining my own motives and behavior and not criticizing anyone else’s went ignored, as had all my previous efforts to keep the big picture on center stage, not our differences. People apparently wanted the fight, not to understand each other. Similarly, when I applauded a good argument on another thread by a woman of faith who thought that providing an example was more important than proselytizing, a familiar character showed up and found it ironic (”Hahaha!”) that I would find any Chris!
    tian
    blog post good. I said nothing and cleared out, which is why I missed the meltdown on the thread exploring tolerance.

    Lessons learned? I am becoming more convinced than ever that a good forum is not possible without moderation. The BlogCatalog formula of just catching reports of bad behavior isn’t enough, especially if they are going to be liberal with trouble-makers. Occasional warnings in discussions also don’t seem to work either.

    The interactions of normally rational people with trouble-makers suggests why BlogCatalog administrators are sometimes too liberal with troublemakers for my taste. Who exactly is making trouble? Doesn’t it take two to tango? Can’t we ignore nasty comments and not “feed the troll” (to use internet speak)? Do we have to get all caught up in who is right and who is not? (I include myself in all of that, though not for the thread in question.) The obvious annoyance of the administrator who then locked the thread recalled a remark he had made earlier in the week: “You people don’t need admin, you need a babysitter” or something to that effect. When some regulars laughed, he told them he meant them too. He spoke more truth than he is perhaps aware of. Online forums of this kind do need full-time moderation, but the company isn’t set up for that.

    What do I mean by forums of this kind? Well, following the decade’s trend of user-created and user-driven content on the internet, the owners like to use a “community” metaphor to talk about BlogCatalog. But who is that community? It includes a whole bunch of bloggers, many of whom have nothing in common besides that. Bloggers blog for all kinds of reasons, some to make money, some to explore ideas, some as a soapbox, and so on. Some of us blog using our real names, refusing to hide behind anonymity, while others use anonymity, sometimes abusing it in order to abuse others, other times being quite decent people who simply want or need to protect their privacy. No matter how you slice or dice it, we are just a whole bunch of people with no sense of common purpose. Well, many of us perhaps have one, but enough don’t to make moderation indispensable, at least if we are to have intelligent conversations about meaningful issues.

    As another blogger told me sometime after I wrote the above blog post, my standards are too high. I expect too much of people on these forums. He might be right. And so I come full circle from giving BlogCatalog another chance after seeing a little more involvement from one of its owners on the main boards to thinking my final paragraph in the above blog post is dead on.

    And maybe I should also be looking at forums more dedicated in purpose and more restrictive in membership. An example of the former would be a new one from my local public radio station, WAMU. And its home might lead to a certain quality of membership, or at least a sense of shared community and hence mutual respect, because everyone lives here. It’s possible, though it will also depend on how the thing is set up, if and how it’s moderated, and so on.

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